Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Closed-loop flow modeling

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Question Closed-loop flow modeling

    Hello,

    I am trying to figure out how to model flow in a lazy river (closed-loop flow, recirculated by a pump). So far, I am struggling to use HEC-RAS for this, even to model just one segment. I was wondering if HEC-RAS actually could do this, and if not (or too complicated), could a program like H2ONET model this type of flow?

    Thanks,

    Monica

  2. #2
    Forum Moderator

    Innovyze Employee



    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Monica Cerceo View Post
    Hello,

    I am trying to figure out how to model flow in a lazy river (closed-loop flow, recirculated by a pump). So far, I am struggling to use HEC-RAS for this, even to model just one segment. I was wondering if HEC-RAS actually could do this, and if not (or too complicated), could a program like H2ONET model this type of flow?

    Thanks,

    Monica
    Hello Monica,
    I would suggest instead of H2ONET that Innovyze products, XPSWMM, InfoSWMM and InfoWorks ICM can all simulate your closed river loop with pumps.
    Regards,
    Robert Dickinson
    Innovyze Inc.

  3. #3

    EPA SWMM 5

    Quote Originally Posted by InnovyzeRobert View Post
    Hello Monica,
    I would suggest instead of H2ONET that Innovyze products, XPSWMM, InfoSWMM and InfoWorks ICM can all simulate your closed river loop with pumps.
    Regards,
    Robert Dickinson
    Innovyze Inc.
    Thank you for your fast response!

    Would EPA SWMM 5 be able to model the flow?

  4. #4
    Forum Moderator

    Innovyze Employee



    Innovyze Employee



    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    420
    Monica,

    For open Channel flow the Innovyze products, XPSWMM, InfoSWMM and InfoWorks ICM are preferred. I know for sure that InfoSWMM uses the EPANET SWMM5 engine and should thus be likely you could use SWMM5 to model this.

    Also, based on your last response, If it is open channel flow H20NET and InfoWater would not be appropriate software to use for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monica Cerceo View Post
    Thank you for your fast response!

    Would EPA SWMM 5 be able to model the flow?

  5. #5
    Forum Moderator

    Innovyze Employee



    Innovyze Employee



    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    420
    Monica,

    If the flow was in a pipeline that was completely full you could use EPANET or InfoWater to do this, although it might have difficulty converging if there is no demand and the pump was off. There would also need to be at least a tank inserted somewhere in the model to allow it to solve for a proper head value even though it could easily be smaller in size.

    The biggest challenge would obviously be would you be able to adequately represent this system as a network of pressurized closed pipelines? If not, then any program using EPANET as its analysis solver (like H20NET or InfoWater) would not be ideal to use as this is one of the assumptions made by EPANET.

    Using one of the suggested software Robert noted above would likely be a much better tool to use for this.

    See this thread for an example of a pump looping to a tank can be used to model dosing chlorine inside a tank and may assist you: https://forums.innovyze.com/threads/...highlight=loop

    Patrick Moore

  6. #6
    I think I left out an important piece of information - we need to be able to model open-channel flow in a recirculating loop using pumps. Does that make sense? So sorry for leaving that off!

  7. #7
    Forum Moderator

    Innovyze Employee



    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    22
    Hello Monica,
    You can model your recirulating open channel flow using SWMM5 as well as the Innovyze products I mentioned. One difference, however, between SWMM5 and XPSWMM and InfoWorks ICM is that you can have River Reaches in XPSWMM and InfoWorks ICM compared to only HEC-RAS Transects in SWMM5. I hope this helps.
    Regards,
    Robert Dickinson

  8. #8
    Thank you so much! I will be trying EPA SWMM 5, as that is the only one I have installed, and see how far I can get.

  9. #9
    Before I get started: any tips for starting an open-channel, closed-loop system fed by pumps in SWMM 5? I haven't used this software much before.

  10. #10
    Forum Moderator

    Innovyze Employee



    Innovyze Employee



    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    420
    Monica,

    As it appears EHRA only has H20NET, you would need a stormwater modeling software to do what you are asking for. If you find you might be doing enough of these type of analysis we would recommend having your regional Customer Service Manager (CSM) provide you a demo on the InfoSWMM, XPSWMM and ICM software as this would be our ideal recommendation if you end up doing full stormwater models in the future.

    If you are just doing this as a quick one-off analysis for a client you may wish to use the SWWM 5 engine which can be downloaded here at no cost. You can find downloads and manuals for SWMM 5 on this link: https://www.epa.gov/water-research/storm-water-management-model-swmm but we ourselves do not directly support that product so you would need to self learn or find other assistance on how to use SWMM 5. This blog is specifically directed at support for users of Innovyze software but can be helpful as many of our products use EPANET and SWMM 5 as their analysis engines.

    Robert Dickinson who has replied to this thread also keeps a pretty strong SWMM 5 blog though that while focused on Innovyze and SWMM 5 interrelationships may be of use to you and can be found on this link: https://swmm5.org/

    Quote Originally Posted by Monica Cerceo View Post
    Before I get started: any tips for starting an open-channel, closed-loop system fed by pumps in SWMM 5? I haven't used this software much before.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •